Review of Thomann.de Baroque Guitar

Add a Comment

Comment by Frei on February 27, 2011 at 22:03

I do have huge political/social/moral issues with China, and Pakistan for that matte. I would buy Mexican because that helps keep Mexicans in Mexico, we have huge problems with illegal immigration in the USA. The main issue is US companies are targeted to be bought out, and shipped to China, or wherever the labor is cheapest, and so we have an economic collaps happing, that will eventually boomerang to the EU, because Americans were supporting most of the world with our rampant consumerism. The EU probably has some kind of worker protections, but Germany is not globalist, and is second behind China, and when you consider quality, its about first. Basicly, any job in America could be up for grabs, we are not Germany, where you cant buy a screw that is not made in the next town. I use Hondo Hog with no reservations, so my morals are not as high as some people, there will always be difference of opinion.  But $1000.00 is way high for something made in Pakistan, as I said, Martin makes good Mexican guitars for $350.00 US, because they are not jacking profits just yet. Hope I didn't offend anyone too much! Politics are always volitile, but should be taken with a grain of salt, this is a guitar forum.

Comment by Valéry Sauvage on February 27, 2011 at 21:16

Yes Rob, I have a short view... Ok, thanks a lot. My counsciousness is not the same as yours. I'm sorry. And we will see where the world is going soon.

And about the conditions of the workers, I hope you'll share the same to really see what it is. I'm sorry my english is toopoor to make great developpement about this, but there is a lot to say, and some books to read (I'm sorry to have only frenche references, but I'm sure if you want to make an effort you will find some to explain to you what I cant do by myself. I'm really sorry you don't want to understand my point of view, I have nothing against people in other countries, I'm not protecting mine either, I just have something against people making money on the back of the poor people, and against people taking advantage of it in a consumer way of life. Ok to have a baroque guitare, perhaps wait one year or two saving money to buy a good one, no, we always want everything at once, and this world is making it possible, but at what "real"price (not money here, but again ethical...) ???

Ok my computer is made in Asia, and the factories making computers ine Europe (and USA) are closed, and people unemployed. If you're Ok with this I'm not, and I'll say it. I have no choice for this, but where I have choice, I do my choice. Question of moral ? Yes, ask yourself. Global world is for businessmen to make money, not for people to be happy. Change it before it will be too late. My opinion. Don't answer, I won't.

Comment by Rob MacKillop on February 27, 2011 at 20:33

You are the one with the 'short view', Val. This is an international forum. It is not 'them' and 'us'. International financial politics is far more complex than saying 'they are taking our jobs'.

Where was your computer made, Val? You are no position to moralise. First you complained about the Green credentials of importing instruments (although your ukulele came from Hawaii) then you complain about workers conditions without making any effort to find out what those conditions are. But now we really get to the heart of what you are saying: 'they' are taking 'our' jobs! 

Comment by Valéry Sauvage on February 27, 2011 at 19:28

Sorry to come back Rob, it is not to say "Nothing from China (or Asia)' it is just a reflexion on how our world is going and the ethical question of buying everything cheap form "low cost workers" countries. (A question: will you accept to work in the condition THEY are working ???) You are not helping them in buying this instruments, your give your money to the international societies using this business to increase their incomes.  Unfortunatly, people say : my wife is unemployed, so I don't have money to buy an US instrument, so I buy an asian one. OK, I do understand, but why is his wife unemployed ? because people put the factories aboard, and close the factories in our countries. Buying everything aboard, and your cutting the branch oy are sitting on. It is not only about early instruments, but clothes, cars, electronics, and even now food. Just ask yourself the good questions, and don't have short view. OK, Now I'm out of this discussion. Just let you in front of your own consciousness.

Comment by Rob MacKillop on February 27, 2011 at 8:06

Just in case anyone missed it, there is an update to this thread here http://earlyguitar.ning.com/video/2nd-review-of-thomannde where I play the instrument with the new brown nylgut strings.

 

As for a US citizen who would 'not want anything Chinese', he would be missing out on some great instruments. I would put any top level hand-made Chinese guitar against a USA Gibson any day. The workmanship on most of the US Gibsons and Fenders that reach the UK is often appalling. My Japanese Squire Strat beats all Fenders up to at least four times the price. My students often don't believe me when I tell them this, and they spend their money on a very expensive American-made model, and every time we compare they are forced to admit they made a mistake. The quality control coming out of US instruments from US factories is apparently non existent, judging by their export market. Warped necks, tuners not working properly, buzzing strings from uneven frets, frets sticking out the side of the neck, electronic wiring problems, etc, etc. 'Made In The USA' does not imply high quality.

 

But enough of the popular guitar market. We are talking about a Pakistani-made baroque guitar. It is definitely not equal to anything at four times the price, or even twice the price. But you get what you pay for, and if it is all you can afford, then it is better than nothing, or than, as my student was doing, playing De Visee on a cheap classical guitar. 

Comment by Mark Day on February 27, 2011 at 3:43

Yeah it's unbelievable to me that a price could be too low. There just aren't enough of us peasants who want to play lutes and other early instruments. There is no such thing as a price that is "too low" for me! There is another forum I like to browse from time to time, the musical instrument makers forum (mimf.com). They have something on there called the "$100 challenge" and it moves around from "flat-top" to electric, to "other" stringed instruments. The basics are you have to spend less than $100 on materials and build a functioning instrument. You would be surprised at what people can do for less than $100 - especially those who process their own lumber. Once you get over the idea that a classical guitar HAS to be constructed with European spruce and Brazilian rosewood, or it's just cheap junk, you will realize there are many "alternative" woods that can and indeed should be used. If you read through the threads on that forum you will find a few luthiers who use only locally available woods. The most sucessful seem to be those making steel-string guitars. Maybe because of the folk guitar aspect, buyers of steel string guitars are less picky. 

But regardless of the instrument of materials, you're paying for the labor. American and European labor costs more, simply because it costs more to live here. There have been posts on this group from people who have bought "Baroque" and Renaissance guitars from Mexico and have been satisfied with them. Just because someone's standard of living is lower than yours and therefore the cost of their labor is less, it doesn't mean they do inferior work. God knows I could learn a thing or two from some "cheap" Mexican, Chinese, Indian, (fill in the blank) luthiers.

Alright, I guess I should get back to the coal mine and stop aspiring to things outside my station ;)

Comment by Scot Tremblay on February 27, 2011 at 3:41

Well, actually if you read the whole blurb, Mel Wong is an American who just happens to be Chinese. So really they were American made,  in San Francisco by an American citizen from American wood (Douglas Fir and Englemann Soruce).

 

He may have made a error in marketing them as "Chinese Made" but to me the point is that even if someone does find a way to make inexpensive instruments people will continue complaining that there are no home grown "inexpensive quality instruments" rather than buy them.

Comment by Frei on February 27, 2011 at 2:52

Ah yes, but they were Chinese. I would not want anything Chinese at this point, which is fairly difficult to do in the USA. I have seen and played nice $350.00 small Martin guitars, almost bought one. Mexican made. Martin quality, and good sound. So, I think $1000.00 is way high for what they get the materials and labor for.

Comment by Scot Tremblay on February 26, 2011 at 23:52

There has been this discussion on other sites concerning the lack of well made but inexpensive instruments. Here is an interesting experiment undertaken by San Francisco luthier Mel Wong.

 

He set out to see if "Cheap Chinese made" lutes would sell. His experience may be indicative of a mind set that you would be up against or maybe something else I cannot say but it is an interesting read in any case.

 

http://www.blackbirdstringarts.com/2010/11/22/chinese-made-or-made-...

 

I know from an "unscientific" experiment with my own instruments that I found results which pretty much paralled his. I had a number of "show"  instruments (ones that I would take to display at trade shows) that I had decided to sell at a greatly reduced price as "entry level" or student instruments. I was very surprised at the difficulty I experienced. It seems that there is a price, which if perceived to be too low, appears to turn people off and into thinking that there must be something wrong with the instrument. I wonder if that mind set was instrumental in many of the relatively negative comments posted earlier on this thread concerning the Thomann guitar?

 

 

Comment by Frei on February 26, 2011 at 22:46

So, would $800.00 US Baroque guitars sell, if they are decently made? I have a bunch of Honduran Mahogany that I thinned out for Baroque style guitars. Just got one eye fixed, Ive been out of the luthier lupe for over a year.

 

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• 3
• 4
• 5
• Next ›
• Page