Left hand thumb

[Lars Hedelius-Strikkertsen]

Just out of curiosity.

I'm interested in knowing how many of you 19th century guitarists uses the left hand thumb when playing.

I'm very fond of using it and do it when I can - see the Duo Historico video at about 1:50, I'm the one on the left, just so you know ;-). You can see I play the F-sharp with my thumb. 

Carulli used his thumb quit often in his music even when it wasn't neccesary. And Giuliani did it - ex. his Rossiniane no 1 opus 119 bar 27. It's not possible to play all the notes in this chord if you dont use the thumb on the low B.

Mertz allso used the thumb quiet often

 

The funniest thing is that allmost all electric guitarist uses the thumb. How this thing went from the classic guitar to the "modern" guitar is interesting. How did it happen. Any ideas

see this clip with John Mayor. Actually a good song but look at his thumb, quiet athletic would'nt you say.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20Ov0cDPZy8

 

 

 

[Lars Hedelius-Strikkertsen]

Your right regarding the demise of the guitar and its not only in the classical guitarworld but in all of the classical music world.

[Rob MacKillop]

Scot,

 

I recently played an exact copy of a Loar Gibson L5 - the first acoustic archtop he made for Gibson. Anyway, it had a Vee-shaped neck, designed to fit comfortably in the crook of the hand between thumb and first finger. It was incredibly comfortable to hold, with the thumb easily accessing the 6th string. There are many images of guys from the 1920 holding these guitars at quite an angle, with the face of the guitar almost looking at the ceiling. That said, I am not aware of any 19th-century guitars with necks like this. 

 

The music of the Viennese school is much more closely related to violin music - Sor criticised it off for this - open-string basses and lots of scales and arpeggios above. The notation systems also seem closer to violin notation. So, I'm wondering if the technique of holding the instrument was also influenced by violin technique. 

 

Difficult to get a Stauffer under you chin, though...

[Lars Hedelius-Strikkertsen]

How many guitarist back then actually played like that, supporting the guitar with the left hand?

Without knowing it I think that the most guitarist played with a strap, as I do (see Duo Historico video) or with the guitar supported by the left leg wich was elevated like in the famous picture of Carcassi ( I'll upload it for you to see). And then we have Sor wich in his method mention that the guitar should be supported by a table ( my duopartner, Ruben actually tried that and he experienced that the table, made of wood, was like a resonator and was "singing" with the guitar, at last we have the tripod made by Aguado.

[Scot Tremblay]

Rob,

 

I believe you are correct in that there were very few if any of the European 19th century guitars with the "V" neck. I mainly had a picture, in my mind, of the mid and later 19th century American ones from the likes of Martin, Washburn etc. when I mentioned this style of neck. Maybe I cannot/should not lump those in with the likes of Stauffer, Scherzer, and so on. They were mostly designed with a different musical tradition in mind.

 

However, a puzzling one for me at least, about 15 + years ago I saw and took rudimentary measurements of one very well made highly ornamented instrument by a Viennese builder (I don't remember his name at the moment...Gaufels??...have to look in my notes, maybe I have a photo). It was basically a Stauffer "Legnani"/slipper machine head, copy that had the "V" shaped neck (ebony veneered too). It wasn't as pronounced as the American ones I mentioned above but certainly not the nicely rounded necks of the standard Stauffer.

 

 

[Lars Hedelius-Strikkertsen]

Dont you mean left knee.

I think to really dertermine how they sat and played back then one has to actually see them play wich of course isnt possible for us. To bad though. I would really have liked to hear Giuliani or Sor play. But who knows I could have been disappointed.  Naa Dont think so ;-)

[Rob MacKillop]

There is often a big difference between what a leading player recommends and common practice. 

 

BTW, yesterday I was showing the collection at Edinburgh University to Andreas Schlegel, who was visiting from Switzerland. Andreas showed me a print-off of his new book, due to be published in May at a very low cost (compared to the Stauffer book). It is a photographic record of hundreds of guitars, lutes, citterns in collections - beautiful photographs - with text and technical data. Some 400 pages. Should be around 30 euros, but don't quote me on it.

 

The Edinburgh University Collection is superb - a 6c Pages, a Lacote Decacorde, a Sellas 5c, a few Panormos (one with Sor's signature), a couple of early Martins, and many others. I guess I've become too familiar with them, so it was great to see Andreas's reaction: 'Look at this!....Look at this!' etc. 

 

If you are visiting Edinburgh, I would happily be your guide.

[Rob MacKillop]

It will be a Legnani model, based on this one http://www.vintagemartin.com/stauffer.html but Martin makes his own tuning pegs, Stauffer copies, like the one in the photos but more like the one from the Edinburgh collection. He sent me photos of the machine he put together, similar to that used by watchmakers, with which he makes all the metal parts. He is a dedicated luthier! 

 

He also has a drawing of an instrument thought to be by Martin, which looks exactly like the classic Stauffer. So, I have the option of a copy of a Stauffer/Martin or a Stauffer. The Stauffer/Martin would be of interest to many Americans who do not usually show an interest in 19th-century guitars... 

 

I recorded the original Martin that is in the Edinburgh University collection, but from a later date in the USA. Bigger, fatter, x-bracing. The guitar was really dried out, and I wasn't too inspired by it. I recorded Capitol March by William Fodden, which seemed a suitable choice, but it was a single take, and not my best playing. Here it is:

 

[Scot Tremblay]

"Americans who do not usually show an interest in 19th-century guitar..."

 

Very true, Rob or  put steel strings on them. I got good at patching ripped off bridges. That's how I got access to many of the instruments that I replicate (the one upside of this tradition...) but it's sad to see a Panormo or Lacote with a big chunk of top missing when it could have bee avoided. I haven't seen any of those for a long time so things must be looking up.

 

That's a very pretty Stauffer. Are you getting the veneered neck like that one?

 

 

[Rob MacKillop]

No. I would find it distracting. 

 

Same with beautiful historical 19th-century banjos, built for gut and a mellifluous sound, destroyed this century by clawhammer players putting steel strings on. Such a shame. 

[Scot Tremblay]

Yes, it could be distracting to have a highly ornate neck but I must say, to me, the feel of an ebony veneered neck is devine. If god discovered any better way to finish the neck of a plucked string instrument he/she kept it for him/her self.

[Rob MacKillop]

Thanks. Let's just say it was hard work.