A network for historic guitars and vihuelas
Left hand thumb
Just out of curiosity.
I'm interested in knowing how many of you 19th century guitarists uses the left hand thumb when playing.
I'm very fond of using it and do it when I can - see the Duo Historico video at about 1:50, I'm the one on the left, just so you know ;-). You can see I play the F-sharp with my thumb.
Carulli used his thumb quit often in his music even when it wasn't neccesary. And Giuliani did it - ex. his Rossiniane no 1 opus 119 bar 27. It's not possible to play all the notes in this chord if you dont use the thumb on the low B.
Mertz allso used the thumb quiet often
The funniest thing is that allmost all electric guitarist uses the thumb. How this thing went from the classic guitar to the "modern" guitar is interesting. How did it happen. Any ideas
see this clip with John Mayor. Actually a good song but look at his thumb, quiet athletic would'nt you say.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20Ov0cDPZy8
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Scot Tremblay on
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Width and shape are the deciding factor here. The 19th century guitar, the modern steel string acoustic and the electric guitar have narrow necks in the range of 43+/-mm at the nut. The modern classical has a nut width of ca. 55+/-mm.
The shape of the neck on a 19th century guitar and the modern steel string/rock is usually a half circle. Occassionally in the case of some 19th century guitars and some early steel string acoustics the neck is more of a "V" shape (the instruments with this "V" style neck was specifically designed for players to use their thumb to fret the bass notes. They are uncomfortable to play with modern classical rechnique). The modern classical is more of a "squashed" half circle often bordering on a flattened half circle. So, coupled with the wider fingerboard this makes it much more difficult to execute the thumb over technique to fret the bass strings with the thumb.
It's interesting to note that in many of the very early lute and vihuela pictorals there is depiction of the player using a thumb over the fingerboard to play bass strings. It seems to be a technique with a long history.
Another point about Giulianis use of the left hand thumb that is often overlooked is his supposed use of his whole left hand in front of the fretboard and used much like a cello player. This makes sense as his ability on the cello was noted by his contempories. I also believe it was the cello that he played when he was contracted to play in his good buddy Beethovens Symphony. If I remember correctly Thomas Heck discusses this aspect of Guiliani's technique in his book.
My thoughts on how this came about that the popular music guitarists maintained certain long standing techniques like playing with the left hand thumb where modern classical guitarists didn't:
I think the modern classical technique is a product of one or two persons technique (Tarrega and Segovia) that has become the gold standard for guitarists. All through the ages there have been many variants on "proper" technique. One only has to read the method books of Sor, Aguado, Carulli and so on to see this is true. They had many different ways to achieve the same end and it was more accepted by the general guitar population than today's classical guitar world is willing to accept.
I think that modern classical players no longer use the left thumb to fret notes comes down to one elemental difference in attitude (other than neck size and shape). The 19th century guitarist saw and the folk/rock/pop musician sees technique as the vehicle to make the most of the music, the modern classical player sees the music is a vehicle to make the most of the technique or to put it another way, technique is an end in itself .
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Other than the use of the little finger which some have suggested Giuliani may have done, I have come across a couple solutions to the right hand problem you refer to, Lars. I'm sure you've come across this information as well but for those reading that may not have I'll try to explain.
One is using the thumb to play both the F# and e# then imamii for the remaining notes of the arpegio (ppimamii). The i finger plays both the b and e# at the end of the arp. by sliding from the 3rd to 4th string. As a side note, Pepe Romero often uses this i finger across strings on decending scales very successfully. It is quite do-able with the free stroke but works better with the supported (rest) stroke, especially if playing with nails.
The second solution, I've seen recently which is marked in at least one published piece by Giuliani (I'll have to search for it as I don't remember the Op. number off hand) is pimaiami. The i finger crosses over and plays the top g# (5th line, 2nd measure) mid arpegio.
Of the two, I personally find the second by far the easiest to get up to an acceptable speed.
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If you mean, how quick can one learn to play with this technique, then an hour or so of concentrated effort should show acceptable results...not long. If you mean, how fast one can play the notes using the technique...I've not put a lot of effort in learning to play pimaiami but can get pretty close to the same relative speed as pimami. I think with a little study one should be able to get the same speed as pimami.
The problem I have with pimaiami, is the angle of attack with i on the first string. I play with a bit of nail and sometimes, not always, the nail catches on the string rather than a combination of flesh and nail. So I think it's just a matter of finding the correct right hand position or rolling my hand slightly when reaching for the first string...I'm not quite sure. I will have to study it some more to work it out. If I place an accent on the top note with a supported (rest) stroke it works great but that's not often what is needed...For me it's still a work in progress!
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Permalink Reply by Rob MacKillop on
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I'm sorry, but the note must be a G# in the 5th line down. Your changing it to an E# leads me to think you are accidently playing an F natural in the bass instead of an F#. By playing an F natural in the bass, you would have a 6-string barre to play an E# on the first string. But playing an F# in the bass makes an E# even more difficult than the original G#. It's a C#7 chord with a flat9 in there, providing a Dom7th-type chord over the F# pedal of the (temporary) tonic F#Major. If you make it an E# on top, you run the risk exposing parallel octaves as both E#s now raise a semitone to F# in the following bar. Giuliani would not have done that.
In the 6th line down you changed the G natural to E natural, but the chord is another altered dominant - F#7b9 - the V7 of Bminor. You are killing that beautiful semitone fall from G to F#.
I play this passage with my LH thumb on the 6th string, and make a classic 'diminished 7th shape' on strings 1 to 4 with my fingers. Giuliani absolutely loved putting an enharmonic diminished 7th chord on his V7 chords (just add a b9) as this allowed him to zip about the fretboard doing diminished 7th arpeggios cliches at great speed. It's one of his 'signature licks,' in modern parlance.
In other words...please don't change it!
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Well, I did see a fellow that used his chin to fret notes on the bass strings...see all is not lost. There's always an option.
One issue here that might be taken into consideration...the chin technique worked very well albeit odd to see. However, sometimes the notes sounded a bit fuzzy...then I realized he had a beard...So, if you have facial hair you might want to shave first for the best sound!
Absolutely true story...well except for the beard part. It was a goatee!
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Perfectly playable on period guitars: Yes
Piece of cake: No
For what it's worth, my right hand fingering: ppimami. I wonder if there is a note missing from the 1st bar, 6th line down, where the score indicates seven notes per beat, whereas before and after there are eight? Should we bring in a low E#? Exactly like the 2nd bar, 5th line down...
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Permalink Reply by Lars Hedelius-Strikkertsen on
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I know that Giuliani used his left hand thumb as a cellist. I've tried it but it was very painful, so I guess that I need more hard skin on my thumb to actually carry out this techniques. But I still havnt found a use for it.
I'm allso aware of the different techniques back in the 19 th c and thats why I'm totally against the golden one and only standard technique. I often tell my pupils that I dont care how they play a certain passage as long as they do it in the right way - and here I dont mean my way but the right musically way. If im touched/moved its the right way. But again, we're different people and with different taste. Even one person can have more than one way of playing a piece depending on wich mood they're in, and Im one of those. Take Mendelsohn for example, he is quoted for saying that he didnt liked the metronom that much and one shouldnt become a slave of it because he played the same piece differently from one day to another ( hope the last sentence made sense, english isnt my motherlanguage ), with a different feeling and tempo.
I remember when I was a student at the conservatory my "fellow students" often laughed at me because i some time used and still uses my index finger only, when i play a certain melody. It gives me a better feeling of the frasing. They saw it as an amateurism if you didnt play i m i m i m at all time. How stupid they were, listning to them playing was quiet boring for me. They were mostly focused on the technique and not on the music. And they still are to this day, a bad habit in all classical musicians today by the way.
Lars
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I often use my thumb on the sixth string. It makes some passages easier to play. I often repeat the RH index or middle fingers for melodic work on the first and second strings. I've never used my thumb as a cellist. I have been known to use a cross-fret barre, holding a C on the 5th string and an F# on the 1st string with the same finger, while the other fingers are employed elsewhere - Bream notates this in his edition of Giuliani's Grand Overture.
Sometimes there is a problem in trying two things at once: respect for the composer's score, and playing 'in the manner of' a guitarist of the period. I can live with that.
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Permalink Reply by Mark Day on
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Blues guitarists commonly use the thumb-over technique. It was integral to Hendrix's style, which is where John Mayer presumably gets it. He is hugely influenced (as am I) by Jimi Hendrix. Of course in the case of Jimi Hendrix and myself it is the right thumb, not the left ; )
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Nice pictures/paintings. I myself use as mentioned before the left hand thumb but allso I rest my littlefinger on the deck. It crossed my mind though, that with the small neck of a 19th c. guitar my LH thumb is almost at all times showing even when I play passages where I don't intend to use the thumb.
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I know that some guitarist held the guitar like You mentioned. But I think its only possible to play like that when you accompany a singer and dont have to move up and down the neck. Maybe You've heard/read, Hans, that because of the popularity of the instrument common people where oftened portaited holding a guitar. These people was not necessarily able to play the guitar. But then again the pictures that You uploaded is with serious guitarist as you mentioned yourself.
Anyway, once again we can see that a standard one and only technique didnt occur in the 19th c. Thats why I'm using a varied amount of techniques depending on the music.
The music comes first and the technique second, otherwise it will be more of a sport or an athletic competition
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"The music comes first and the technique second, otherwise it will be more of a sport or an athletic competition."
I don't want to disrupt this thread and get into this topic but I will say one thing: the idea that technique is the most important is exactly what has frustrated me the most about the modern classical guitarists attitude. It's a sad thing but I believe this attitude is leading to the demise of the classical guitar concert and classical guitar in general as a viable musical experience.
There, my rant is over! Back to the topic at hand.
Can one of you fellows explain in a little more detail the "violin player left hand" as it applies to the guitar? I tried it after reading this and trying to copy the photos. I find it the most uncomfortable left hand position I think I've ever tried. I almost cannot move my fingers...I must have the concept wrong.
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