Review of Thomann.de Baroque Guitar

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Comment by Scot Tremblay on February 1, 2011 at 21:09

I'm sorry Rob. You came with a the best of intentions to introduce us to a great find and this seems to have morphed into a political discussion.

 

I agree with Michael that the introduction of cheap "foreign" instruments will not spell the demise of the "western" musical instrument trade. I agree that, in fact, it will help more than we know.

 

I my little part of the world in Western Canada we have a massive Chinese and East Indian population, many of whom are great musicians, artists and so on. It's true that many have an instrument from their home country, some are extremely good instruments, like a friends "Chinese Strad Violin", but it's also true that they also want the "Antonio of the Po Valley" instrument. And like my friend, many have the money to pay for a hand made instrument or in the case of her violin, a early 19th century French instrument.

 

I have to admit that I get many of my pegs for my period guitars from India. I deal with a company that employs underprivilaged persons (many are women/single mothers) to turn the pegs individually by hand on small lathes. I can send a full size drawing of the shape I need and a choice of woods and a few weeks later my pegs arrive. They are fantastic in quality and consistency. I have tried to get the same quality and consistency from turners in my local area but even at four to six times the cost (which I wouldn't complain about paying if it would help reduce my carbon footprint) I cannot.

 

My main concern about many of the instruments (lutes for the most part aand a few 19th century guitars) I've seen from Pakistan, India, Middle East, Latin America and (not so much) China is that the quality is lacking and often much work is needed to get them into a relatively acceptable playing condition. I'm afraid that the student will get frustrated and discard studying the instrument all together. I've seen it happen a couple times recently and I find that unfortunate.

 

This guitar from Thomman seems to not be one of those. It would be a welcome choice for novices and beginners and I certainly would recommend it for the students in my area and have no fear that my livelyhood would be taken away...I don't make those anyways ;)

 

 

Comment by Michael. N. on February 1, 2011 at 17:52

IF that instrument has the same pedigree as the EMS Lutes, it is made in India. There is a small industry in India based around providing fittings and wood for both plucked and bowed instruments. Most of the milling work done on Ebony and Rosewood is carried out in India, it's a method of extracting the maximum value for the host country. Indian Rosewood export is controlled by the Indian government.

I doubt that the Baroque Guitar in question will have any adverse effects on the sales of European based Luthiers. Actually there is a very good chance that it will have the opposite effect. It may well increase interest in the instrument.  The huge number of Violins that are now being mass produced in both E.Europe and China would leave one to believe that the game is up for Antonio of the Po Valley. It isn't. It has simply led to more and more people playing the fiddle - no doubt many of them in the far east. Don't forget that that these countries have a burgeoning and relatively rich middle class. Oddly enough, they don't want Chinese instruments either :-) They'd rather have it made by Antonio.

Still, Val does have a very valid point. There does seem to be an awful lot of Americans buying Australian Guitars, Australians buying German Guitars, Germans buying Spanish. . . ,.

Comment by Chris Despopoulos on February 1, 2011 at 17:11

I'm of the opinion that if the instrument is *playable*, that's the most important thing.  Then comes sound, which is very important indeed, but a beautiful sound on an instrument you can't reasonably fret isn't very helpful.  Having suffered hearing loss, I can tell you that it's entirely human to fill in the missing information...  It's not ideal, but it gets you started. A good teacher should be able to hear what the student is accomplishing, even if the instrument doesn't sound superb.

 

Probably the biggest impediment to learning an instrument like the guitar is an instrument that makes it impossible to hit the notes you need to hit.  If the instrument is improperly set up, or if it simply can't tune, then a student will quit sooner than you can say Bob's your uncle.  OTOH, if the overall sound leaves much to be desired, but the notes all come out reasonably correctly, the experience is much different.  And if the instrument is capable of a dynamic range and a color range, so much the better. 

 

Rob, probably a telling test would be to try this thing with decent strings, and see how expressively you can play. How colse to real satisfaction can you come with the instrument?

 

As the old junkie, schizophrenic, sociopath who taught me to shoot pool once said, you should be able to win even if you're playing with a broom stick.  (Of course, I never reached that standard...)

 

As to the ethics...  It would be interesting to know more about that.  I'm sure we're not talking about child slaves, except maybe the helpers who sweep the shop floor.  I suppose one would feel better to know for sure.  But there's also the ethical problem of NOT buying the instrument just because it was built in a certain nation.  By that standard, shouldn't you boycott instruments made in the US (if you oppose the Iran invasion), or Europe (if you oppose the World Bank), or Japan (if you oppose whaling)? 

Comment by Rob MacKillop on February 1, 2011 at 15:00

 

This video has had over 130 views in 24 hours, yet only three people commenting. I would like to know what more people think.

 

Have I got this one completely wrong? Should we in the West resist anything from 'the East'? Should we insist the minimum price for a baroque guitar be £1000? I can assure you, if there is something ethically wrong, I will take down the video. It is not a matter of conscience until we know the facts. So far I have treated it like any other asian guitar that comes my way. There may well be an artisan somewhere depending on our disposable income.

 

The owner of the store got back to me, saying he will look into it. So, our discussion is being aknowledged, and now we await a reply.

 

So, a few more comments please...

Comment by Valéry Sauvage on February 1, 2011 at 12:51

It is perhaps too easy (I can't make a three pages comment in english...) but if no one say so, we will not try to go to a better world... Of course it is short but there is some true into it. (well after everyone do according to his consciousness)

Comment by Rob MacKillop on February 1, 2011 at 11:42

1. I have asked.

2. Transport: I understand. But have all your luthiers used locally-grown wood? If not, the wood must have been transported from somewhere. Hawaii is not local to a Frenchman.

3. I do not think this instrument will 'kill' luthiers in Europe. Asian countries have made classical and steel-strung guitars for decades, but there are many guitar makers in Europe and America.

 

It is too easy to say 'All instruments from Asia are killing lthiers, ruining the planet, are unethical'. The world is more complex than that.

Comment by Valéry Sauvage on February 1, 2011 at 11:21

Three point to add to my comment (sorry my english is poor...)

First one Ethical (as said before, what are the workers conditions, salary, medical and social helps... we can say we don't know, but we know it is not very good in China, or Pakistan... So make your choice about it...)

Second is transport, buying thing from the other side of the planet is a cost in transportation, a cost for the planet (CO2, warm effect and so on... what is the earth we will leave to our childrens ??? ask yourself...)

Third is buying instruments cheap at the other side of the world will kill the makers on our side... Saying people prefer to buy cheap, ok, aren't we rich contries, can't we make an effort for our tools or toys ? (dont buy a 4x4, you'll have money for more instruments...)

For my sake, even my Ukulele aren't asiatics, (ok one came from Hawaï, that is too far away...) my lutes are french, my guitars too old to been made in china, my melodeon french too and I made my own minstrel banjo.

Buy to your closer luthier, go to visit him ! (and even I wanted to play lute at ten, I had to wait until 30 to buy my first one, but people now it is just like " I can't wait more than two days...")

Sorry for the rant..; but it is the future of our planet...

 

Comment by Rob MacKillop on February 1, 2011 at 9:51

I sent the following to the head of the company, Hans Thomann:

 

Dear Hans,

 

I am an admirer of your company. I have bought The Loar 700 guitar and a 6-string banjo case, and each time delivery was excellent. I recommended your company to a student of mine who was interested in the baroque guitar. I said I did not know the quality of your baroque guitar, but the price made it worth the gamble. Well, the guitar arrived last week, and my student brought it to me yesterday. It is very well made, although the strings are very bad and set up wrong for baroque guitar practice. The student has ordered better-quality strings, and I look forward to trying it again.

 

I made a video review and posted it to a baroque guitar discussion site: http://classic-banjo.ning.com/video There have been a few public responses and a few private emails to me also. People seem to be worried that because the product is so inexpensive, your company might be acting unethically - the instrument plus case plus free shipping at a low price. So I said I would write to you to ask for your Ethical Policy, and if you have any more information you can provide me regarding the circumstances of how this instrument is made? I will quote your response back to them.

 

I would like to make another video when the student puts the new strings on, and I hope to have something from you to mention in my review. If the instrument is Ethically Sourced, I will have no hesitation is recommending it as a starter baroque guitar.

 

Yours respectfully,

 

Rob MacKillop

Edinburgh

Scotland

Comment by Rob MacKillop on February 1, 2011 at 9:24

 

Well, I will write to Thomann and ask them about their Ethical Policy. I will let you know if they reply.

 

The response here is interesting, and fairly negative, yet I've had a few private emails which are wholly positive. Clearly it is going to divide people. If the product is ethically sourced, then I have no problem with it, even if the sound is not ideal. For £360 I do not expect a professional sound, and no one buying this instrument should expect to get that. I agree with Scott, though, one does wonder how they can do it so cheaply - so I will ask them...

Comment by Scot Tremblay on February 1, 2011 at 9:04

I am aware that there are some concerns that some of the instruments coming from some of the Asian countries are made in "sweat shop" style factories with child workers as shoes and clothing seem to have been a few years ago (maybe some are still, I don't know).

 

I'm not so sure that goes on with musical instruments. It seems to me that a musical instrument, even a low quality one, requires a bit more skill than clothing...I could be wrong.

 

An American luthier and friend of mine has a line of instruments that he gets made in China and they are an excellent product and real value for the serious student through intermediate and even semi-professional player. You are correct in that we are not used to it in lutes, vihuelas and baroque guitars but I'm sure the time is coming, and quickly, where there will be a lot more available to choose from in these instruments.

 

I personally have nothing against inexpensive student instruments if they are of good/reasonable quality, I just cannot figure out how to make them for the price the Asians can. The cost of living in the western countries is so different from that of many of those countries which makes it impossible to compete. But I'm sure that will change soon as well, one way or the other.

 

However, if the guitar being reviewed is fairly well made (which it looks like it is), with reasonable quality solid materials (solid spruce top and ebony parts), a case which looks good, at least one middleman between maker and seller, shipping from maker to distributer to seller, profit for everyone involved, free shipping from seller to buyer...all this from the price quoted?...I can see how one could wonder if something was amiss somewhere along the line. That certainly does not mean there is. As you say the proof is needed but it does raise a question...How do they do it?

 

I do look forward to your next video. I'm interested to see and hear your further thoughts on the instrument.

 

 

 

 

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