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Very interesting book I didn't new before, with some scores, and in the second part (f. 48) some tabs for six courses mandora and 5 course guitar. (nice music not too hard to play)

Do you know this book, is it by Logy/Losy ?

Thanks for your answers...


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I can't answer your question, but did you find any indication of how the instruments are tuned? 

I try to play the parts in tabs, it works on a baroque guitar (missing the 6th string for the first part) so standard tuning. I also have some mandora tabs from Wien that works on a six strings guitar standard tuning.

Can this file, as a whole, be downloaded Valèry?


A member did a pdf on the french Delcamp forum (at first Jean-François Delcamp gave the link to the tab.)

I'll ask to post it here.

Here is a pdf (thanks to Francis Privet for doing the job, and to Jean-François Delcamp for the link to the MS...)



Many thanks, Valèry - and to Francis Privet.

Two pieces in the book are using 12 courses (f47v, aria, and the piece f. 90r) Mathias Rösel suggest an Archguitar.

Another person said that the rondeau f 51v is also in Saizenay Ms (and other) with attribution to Losy.


Further to this, at the time I forgot to mention some other digital facsimiles of solo mandora music available for download here:



The Ms A 20.545 is particularly interesting and contains some quite decent pieces. It is for 8 course mandora (probably in the E tuning) which became popular towards the end of the 18th century.  But most pieces can be played on a 'romantic' 6 string guitar (or even a 5 course guitar with low bourdons) with a few octave adjustments. Note the high passage work (fret n on the second course etc) in pieces such as the Polon(aise) on fol 13v-14 and the Rondo on fol 15v-16.




I agree that the pioneering MAB edition was advanced for its day (my copy has the date1979 not 1962 so I presume a silent second edition).

Unfortunately the transcription is not always accurate or straightforward. As examples:  the first Allemande from Prague II Kk 77 (MAB p 1) is transcribed with incorrect note values; the  Aria (MAB p 17) is not in 5/4 time; and the Rondeau from Brno D 189 (MAB p. 31) is for mandora not guitar. I'm also not convinced of the editorial realisation for the ornaments.

Nevertheless, it was a good attempt by Jaroslav Pohanka at the time, and was one of the very few publications in the 1970s making an attempt to uncover original sources and to make the music accessible to a wider audience before the days of digital downloads etc.


Dear Martin,

You need to look at the original and a digital version is available online. The MS was Prague MS Kk 77 but I understand has now been restored to the Lobkowitz collection.  Look through the archives of this forum and you should find a link (I did several months ago). It wasn't the best of scans but perfectly readable. You'll then be able to make your own mind up about the accuracy of the transcription in the MAB edition.




PS Re the Treder edition, I understand it's a reintabulation of the MAB staff notation so it's not surprising it has the errant 5/4 signature.  But, like you, I also regret that it's not such an exotic piece after all! - and you'll see this is reflected in a private email I sent some time ago on this and other related matters. Edited as pasted below:

>>>    '  Yes, I have the old Supraphon (MAB) edition - not at all bad considering the  date.   Alas, some of the transcriptions are incorrect: see, for  example, No 1 Allemande. This is also the first piece in MsKk 77 but  you'll see that the flags in the first full bar are incorrectly transcribed in the Supraphon edition: instead of three quavers  (down, up, down) the editors have them as a quaver (d) and two semi-quavers  (u  d). The rest of the piece is similarly incorrectly transcribed.  There are a fair number of such scattered errors throughout the publication. The one I like the best is No 33 'Aria' which they transcribe as being in 5/4 time and over which  I tried many different stresses to make it work effectively (shades of William Shield's predeliction for 5/4) but, alas, when I saw a copy  of  the original I saw the scribe marks it simply as a 3 time and,  although  some flags are missing and barring is often nonsensical, it plays as  a triple time piece - what a shame - I rather liked the idea of a 5/4 guitar work in the early 18th century. The page before has a  'Menuet' which is similarly poorly barred in the original but as a menuet can be easily rebarred.

But hats off to Supraphon for publishing such a work at that date. You'll see the editors also made a list of sources and include another  one for mandora with works by Losy: Brno, Moravian Museum A 3329. The Losy rondeau I mentioned as being probably for mandora is on page 31 of the Supraphon edition. In Brno Ms D189 it has 'Rondeau  /  C  Loeschi'  which the editors thought, I think correctly, is Losy. This particular piece does, in fact, also appear as a Dm lute piece as well as in  D189 for a 6  string instrument in a known mandora tuning.   

We've discussed D189 before: it contains instructions how to tune the gallichon/mandora ( f. 3 'Calledono accord') and the guitar (f.48 ' Fundementa Chytarra')  and,  interestingly, on f.48v has 'Accordo Chytarra et Mandora' indicating either instrument is possible. And from f. 48v it has pieces for an instrument with six courses in a known mandora tuning with the sixth  course just a tone below the fifth - presumably a guitarist would simply play the open third course. On 51v is our rondeau showing quite clearly 6 courses - and in this piece putting the sixth course up an octave would spoil the melodic effect (see last system bars 3 through to 6). Odd that the editors make no mention of a sixth course being required. The piece also fits very easily on the mandora so perhaps, as speculated earlier, it was conceived for the mandora by Losy rather than for guitar or Dm lute. ........



Further to this, try this link




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