grace notes and slurs in the 16th century

[Tonyyyy]

I feel as though I probably shouldnt use slurs or grace notes in music of the 1500's.  Obviously there are the written out divisions and ornaments in renaissance music; any more might  well just sound wrong. I once heard someone playing a Dall'Aquila  piece (early 1500's ) almost like a piece by Bach , lots of mordents and trills,  and it seemed to distract from the beauty and counterpoint.

 

But I confess to a couple of mordents (just a bit of fun!) in Dalza  and a couple of slurs  today in  Le Roy which seemed to help the flow of the melody.

 

I think Hopkinson Smith has done this very occasionally on renaissance guitar -though I maybe heard what I wanted to hear.

 

My rule-of-thumb cut off point for this is about 1600. So Dowland sometimes, LeRoy probably not.  As far as I know the earliest reference to graces is in Archilei in 1589. Emma Kirkby certainly slurs and uses grace notes as well as divisions In a song supposedly by Archilei, which does feel very much early baroque music.

But presumably grace notes were used quite a bit before first recorded reference.

 

Does anyone have opinions?

 

 

[Tonyyyy]

 

 

 

Thanks Martin,

 

Yes, I suspect back then there was a great  variety of styles and techniques fuelled  a long thirsty day of ale or winedrinking .

 

How did they ever  get things done?

In a couple of places in Morlaye I found I just can't get the speed right in the written out ornaments - just one slur can help to keep it fluent. Better maybe than playing the piece slightly too slow to make musical sense. But certainly it it the sort of music that would  need to be well articulated.

 

I will look at the Capirola. Thanks for that.

 

Best wishes

 

Tony

[Valéry Sauvage]

Graces yes of course you can add some, or your own divisions, slurs, I don't think so... Even in fast lines each note is played (with the thumb/index technic you can go fast sometimes...)

The first signs for slurs are in baroque music I think.

[Monica Hall]

And Foscarini mentions slurs - he says they are called strascini by theorbo players and were used by French players in the new tuning for the lute.  Received wisdom is that they are not used in earlier sources I think.

Monica

[Tonyyyy]

Valery Sauvage said:

Graces yes of course you can add some, or your own divisions, slurs, I don't think so... Even in fast lines each note is played (with the thumb/index technic you can go fast sometimes...)

Yes I think you are right.

With a combination of focussed practice (with the metronome) and deliberate relaxation of muscles not needed, I have managed to increase the speed of  thumb-index alternation by about 10 percent. So there is no need to use a slur now in a difficult point

[Monica Hall]

I wouldn't let what classical guitarists think put you off!  

[Scot Tremblay]

I`ve been a player of classical guitar almost all of my life and love the instrument as much as I love the lute and early guitars. CGists can be a pretty closed minded bunch much of the time so I agree with Monica, don`t let that gang stop you from making the music work for you. In the end it`s about the music after all.

[Scot Tremblay]

There is a good case to be made that the vihuelists used a technique similar to that instead of or as well as the thumb/index popular with lute players. Check here under `research`.

 

http://www.ralphmaier.com/

 

There`s nothing new under the sun nor in guitar technique...

[Chris Despopoulos]

I do that with my thumb on the classical guitar.  And I also use thumb/index on the classical guitar.  I've not encountered howls of protest, even in master classes.  (Maybe because the maestro/a threw up his/her hands in disgust and simply gave up?) At the bottom of it, what works and sounds like music is what matters.  Technique on modern instruments is there to help you realize the music as best as you can.  Historical technique on historical instruments of course serves to transport you and others to the period in question -- quite another thing.

[Tonyyyy]

I guess it is inevitable that we develop a hybrid technique, unless maybe we have a very strict teacher keeping a very very watchful eye on things.

Thumb-index alternation is normal for me (I did it on CG too- I think quite a lot of CG players now practice thumb-index scales.) But index-middle scales are easier still

I do find thumb on string 1 is rather odd, but I would in time get used to it - it is no stranger than using index on string 6 on CG .

 

I would like to give thumb-under a serious attempt (on renaissance guitar and lute ) I think that pi alternation could get significantly more relaxed. But too many changes at once is problematic