What to avoid when buying an original 19th C guitar - Early Guitars and Vihuela2024-03-29T09:14:42Zhttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/forum/topics/what-to-avoid-when-buying-an-original-19th-c-guitar?commentId=2111060%3AComment%3A72746&xg_source=activity&feed=yes&xn_auth=noHi Charles,
Some very interes…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2017-07-30:2111060:Comment:727462017-07-30T10:34:11.476ZJelma van Amersfoorthttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/JelmavanAmersfoort
<p>Hi Charles,</p>
<p>Some very interesting remarks by Tom and Thomas above. </p>
<p>I just would like to add one thought about modern replicas. Please beware of guitar makers who make guitars that look historic from the outside, but are basically constructed as smaller-sized modern concert guitars, with lots of 'improvements'. There are many guitar makers doing that! For instance reinforcing the neck with a truss rod, or not using historic bracing patterns under the top. Both affect the sounds…</p>
<p>Hi Charles,</p>
<p>Some very interesting remarks by Tom and Thomas above. </p>
<p>I just would like to add one thought about modern replicas. Please beware of guitar makers who make guitars that look historic from the outside, but are basically constructed as smaller-sized modern concert guitars, with lots of 'improvements'. There are many guitar makers doing that! For instance reinforcing the neck with a truss rod, or not using historic bracing patterns under the top. Both affect the sounds considerably. </p>
<p>Some of those makers combine design features of very different guitars from different eras and countries, and mix those up with modern technology to build what is -- at best -- a small size modern concert guitar disguised (and sold) as a historic instrument. </p>
<p>The best 19th century makers had very good reasons why they chose certain combinations of woods, bracing patterns, tuners (pegs or machines), soundbox design, and fingerboard type.</p>
<p>As to people near you :-) I can think of a few names in Scotland (Jamie Akers or Rob MacKillop) and Birmingham (Danielle Saxon Reeves and Mark Willets), but those are still not too close!</p>
<p>What we need is a proper early guitar festival :-D</p> Hi Jelma,
I am up in Cumbria…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2017-07-30:2111060:Comment:725442017-07-30T09:09:52.654ZCharles Brownehttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/CharlesBrowne
<p>Hi Jelma,</p>
<p>I am up in Cumbria so the nearest large town is 4 hours away!</p>
<p>Charles</p>
<p>Hi Jelma,</p>
<p>I am up in Cumbria so the nearest large town is 4 hours away!</p>
<p>Charles</p> it is worth remembering that…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2017-07-30:2111060:Comment:725432017-07-30T09:06:51.030ZCharles Brownehttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/CharlesBrowne
<p>it is worth remembering that recycling of old instruments was a continuous process over many centuries. The french recycled 10 course renaissance lutes to create 11 course baroque lutes, and later, 13 course lute both bass-rider and swan-neck types were often? created from earlier, large bodied, lutes. Jacob Linberg plays on a 16th C Rauwolf lute that was restored over a period of 10 years. The account of that restoration in the Lute Society Journal makes fascinating…</p>
<p>it is worth remembering that recycling of old instruments was a continuous process over many centuries. The french recycled 10 course renaissance lutes to create 11 course baroque lutes, and later, 13 course lute both bass-rider and swan-neck types were often? created from earlier, large bodied, lutes. Jacob Linberg plays on a 16th C Rauwolf lute that was restored over a period of 10 years. The account of that restoration in the Lute Society Journal makes fascinating reading!</p>
<p>Charles</p>
<p></p> Hi again Thomas! You and I ar…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2017-07-30:2111060:Comment:727452017-07-30T05:18:51.436ZTom Berghanhttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/TomBerghan
Hi again Thomas! You and I are in complete accord! I agree with all of your points. However, once an era is past, it is past. We can never completely get there, so I still maintain there is something magic about one of these fine old 19th century guitars. Of course not all old guitars were good of course ... just like now, there was the A-team ... the B-team ... etcetera.
Hi again Thomas! You and I are in complete accord! I agree with all of your points. However, once an era is past, it is past. We can never completely get there, so I still maintain there is something magic about one of these fine old 19th century guitars. Of course not all old guitars were good of course ... just like now, there was the A-team ... the B-team ... etcetera. Tom,
I should add that instea…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2017-07-30:2111060:Comment:725422017-07-30T04:35:23.810ZThomas Tallanthttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/ThomasTallant
<p>Tom,</p>
<p>I should add that instead of "carefully constructed" it would be better to say the modern luthier who is really a master and who has studied very carefully the early 19th century guitars could achieve a level of greatness and quality exhibited by a Guadagnini or Fabricatore or Stauffer. But then you need the same level of care with regard to the strings. And then the players have to exhibit deep level of understanding of the music played and the styles required to perform the…</p>
<p>Tom,</p>
<p>I should add that instead of "carefully constructed" it would be better to say the modern luthier who is really a master and who has studied very carefully the early 19th century guitars could achieve a level of greatness and quality exhibited by a Guadagnini or Fabricatore or Stauffer. But then you need the same level of care with regard to the strings. And then the players have to exhibit deep level of understanding of the music played and the styles required to perform the music. For example, a deep understanding of bel canto style would be required (just for starters). Also, as I study music from this period, I'm amazed at how differently the guitar masters must have played and sounded from each other. The guitars were also so very different from each other (Lacote, Guadagnini, Fabricatore, etc.). I presume these kinds of differences also apply to the baroque guitars, the music, the players, etc., but that's another whole line of discussion. Thanks for your insights. TT</p> >>>It seems more lik…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2017-07-30:2111060:Comment:726392017-07-30T04:13:20.640ZTom Berghanhttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/TomBerghan
<p>>>>It seems more likely, therefore, that a very carefully constructed copy might actually sound more like the original. People tend to think the old original guitar is the better instrument, but is this really so?<<<</p>
<p> Hi Thomas, Great question. I believe it isn't just the aged wood or carefully copying a period instrument. Luthiers such as Lacote, Fabricatore, Stauffer, or Panormo grew up in guilds that collectively had <i>centuries</i> of experience between the…</p>
<p>>>>It seems more likely, therefore, that a very carefully constructed copy might actually sound more like the original. People tend to think the old original guitar is the better instrument, but is this really so?<<<</p>
<p> Hi Thomas, Great question. I believe it isn't just the aged wood or carefully copying a period instrument. Luthiers such as Lacote, Fabricatore, Stauffer, or Panormo grew up in guilds that collectively had <i>centuries</i> of experience between the masters and their apprentices. One cannot get the same result by simply copying a soundboard for instance. A "master luthier" tap tunes that specific piece of spruce and scraps the wood until they hear exactly what only they know what to listen for. And, the same is true of the braces and so forth. Now, you DO have a point in that a brand new Lacote guitar in the 1820s would sound somewhat stiff compared to one that had been played for 35 years. Now, in my experience, guitars get "played in" certainly within a few decades. So a 185 year old Lacote may or may not sound better than a 35 year old Lacote did. But, duplicating the work of a master like Lacote . . . it goes much, much beyond simply getting out the calipers and copying every dimension. Now this is not to say that present day luthiers like do not build great sounding guitars. Some absolutely do . . . but they old master luthiers like Fabricatore and Lacote are revered not just for being pioneers . . . they were masters of their art and science in every way. </p> Jelma (et al.),
I have a ques…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2017-07-30:2111060:Comment:724492017-07-30T03:21:40.221ZThomas Tallanthttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/ThomasTallant
<p>Jelma (et al.),</p>
<p>I have a question about old guitars. When these guitars were first played, they very likely were new (or almost new) instruments (maybe a few decades old at the most). It seems to me that a guitar build in 1820 is very different from the same guitar in 2017. The wood has aged, the structural profile of the guitar is different. Therefore, it really isn't the same instrument as the younger, newer instrument, and it won't sound the way it sounded in 1820. It seems more…</p>
<p>Jelma (et al.),</p>
<p>I have a question about old guitars. When these guitars were first played, they very likely were new (or almost new) instruments (maybe a few decades old at the most). It seems to me that a guitar build in 1820 is very different from the same guitar in 2017. The wood has aged, the structural profile of the guitar is different. Therefore, it really isn't the same instrument as the younger, newer instrument, and it won't sound the way it sounded in 1820. It seems more likely, therefore, that a very carefully constructed copy might actually sound more like the original. People tend to think the old original guitar is the better instrument, but is this really so? Or maybe 200 years isn't enough time for the sound of the old guitar to undergo radical change from its sound as a new instrument. It's clear that a well-cared-for 200-year-old guitar of fine construction can sound wonderful. Certainly the fine early guitars need to be preserved and studied and copied -- and played.</p> Hello Charles,
To me the the…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2017-07-29:2111060:Comment:725382017-07-29T17:47:51.908ZJelma van Amersfoorthttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/JelmavanAmersfoort
<p>Hello Charles,</p>
<p>To me the the thrill and adventure of playing antique guitars greatly outweighs the inconveniences. I do play my antique guitars for hours when I need to, without problems. Once they are properly restored, and provided you handle them with care, they are quite reliable and generally don't need any maintenance for years. Yes, a good case is crucial, but it does not have to be made-to-measure. Often A 3/4 size hardshell case will fit beautifully.</p>
<p>Maybe you should…</p>
<p>Hello Charles,</p>
<p>To me the the thrill and adventure of playing antique guitars greatly outweighs the inconveniences. I do play my antique guitars for hours when I need to, without problems. Once they are properly restored, and provided you handle them with care, they are quite reliable and generally don't need any maintenance for years. Yes, a good case is crucial, but it does not have to be made-to-measure. Often A 3/4 size hardshell case will fit beautifully.</p>
<p>Maybe you should look up someone who lives near you who plays original guitars (or replicas) and who will let you try them? Whereabouts are you? Maybe we can put you in contact with someone.</p>
<p>Best, Jelma</p> Hi Charles, the picture is no…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2017-07-29:2111060:Comment:727402017-07-29T13:19:29.498ZTom Berghanhttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/TomBerghan
Hi Charles, the picture is not quite as dark as you have painted. There a lots of instruments in the world, centuries old, that are played every day and used in performances constantly. Lots of off-the-shelf hard shell cases can work. If the guitar body is quite small then a bit of padding can easily be added. Foam is easy to cut and cover with felt. All sorts of nasty looking cracks can be repaired such that one would hardly know they ever had been there. And often times, an antique period…
Hi Charles, the picture is not quite as dark as you have painted. There a lots of instruments in the world, centuries old, that are played every day and used in performances constantly. Lots of off-the-shelf hard shell cases can work. If the guitar body is quite small then a bit of padding can easily be added. Foam is easy to cut and cover with felt. All sorts of nasty looking cracks can be repaired such that one would hardly know they ever had been there. And often times, an antique period guitar can cost less than commissioning a new instrument. It was not my intent to dissuade you but rather to prepare you. But it is true that being the owner of a period guitar requires a well informed owner who has a trusted and capable luthier. And since these are period guitars (antiques) the owner has a responsibility to take the best possible care of the guitar. We are not so much owners as caretakers! But it can be very rewarding. But what one should not do is to waltz into any music shop and hand over the guitar to just any repair person. Special skills are required and the luthier's credentials must be vetted. These old guitars are special and deserve the very best care. And no epoxy! All work done should be easily undone if need be in the future! The same materials that were used to build them should be used to maintain and repair them. thank you for your very detai…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2017-07-29:2111060:Comment:724472017-07-29T07:14:14.361ZCharles Brownehttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/CharlesBrowne
<p>thank you for your very detailed reply, Tom. I think that I am changing my mind about buying an antique instrument after reading your reply and the article by James Westbrook. That is as it should be!</p>
<p>The points that have made me change my mind are:</p>
<p>You will need a case for the instrument (1 - 3 months)</p>
<p>You will need a luthier willing to review and restore with time to do so</p>
<p>The instrument will require special handling as an antique and will not be suitable for…</p>
<p>thank you for your very detailed reply, Tom. I think that I am changing my mind about buying an antique instrument after reading your reply and the article by James Westbrook. That is as it should be!</p>
<p>The points that have made me change my mind are:</p>
<p>You will need a case for the instrument (1 - 3 months)</p>
<p>You will need a luthier willing to review and restore with time to do so</p>
<p>The instrument will require special handling as an antique and will not be suitable for prolonged,</p>
<p> every day, playing.</p>
<p>The costs associated with restoration and the time to restore may be open-ended.</p>
<p>The insurance costs will be high(er)</p>
<p>best wishes and thanks for your insight</p>
<p>Charles</p>
<p></p>