Stringing of the early four course guitar (again......) - Early Guitars and Vihuela2024-03-28T20:25:43Zhttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/forum/topics/stringing-of-the-early-four-course-guitar-again?commentId=2111060%3AComment%3A72524&feed=yes&xn_auth=noPoor alpacas. I imagined them…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2017-09-05:2111060:Comment:725992017-09-05T20:34:02.253ZMonica Hallhttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/MonicaHall
<p>Poor alpacas. I imagined them grazing peacefully on the mountain side. I am just reading a book about what I think is your part of the country - Millstone grit by Glynn Hughes.</p>
<p>Poor alpacas. I imagined them grazing peacefully on the mountain side. I am just reading a book about what I think is your part of the country - Millstone grit by Glynn Hughes.</p> Thanks Monica. And sorry my…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2017-09-05:2111060:Comment:725972017-09-05T14:38:39.442ZMartyn Hodgsonhttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/MartynHodgson
<p>Thanks Monica. And sorry my follow-up to my Saturday message, also sent on Saturday, was sent before this latest of yours - I'd not have sent it otherwise.</p>
<p>The llamas (actually alpacas I'm told) in the next couple of fields down in our little hamlet are OK but we (ie the village other than their owners) do worry about the poor animals being kept as pets, generally held in pens and having a wretched life with grass mowed under their feet but then fed only on bought-in feed.…</p>
<p>Thanks Monica. And sorry my follow-up to my Saturday message, also sent on Saturday, was sent before this latest of yours - I'd not have sent it otherwise.</p>
<p>The llamas (actually alpacas I'm told) in the next couple of fields down in our little hamlet are OK but we (ie the village other than their owners) do worry about the poor animals being kept as pets, generally held in pens and having a wretched life with grass mowed under their feet but then fed only on bought-in feed. </p>
<p>regards</p>
<p>Martyn</p> Dear Martyn Thanks for this.…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2017-09-03:2111060:Comment:728362017-09-03T18:40:20.063ZMonica Hallhttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/MonicaHall
<p>Dear Martyn Thanks for this. It is all my fault for starting a silly argument but I think it more likely that the instruments referred to as chitarra italiana etc. are lute shaped but that doesn't rule out figure of eight shaped instruments which would have existed along side and the two forms would be interchangeable, As for Praetorius I just don't think that he has supplied enough information for us draw definite conclusions from. </p>
<p>How are the llamas?</p>
<p>Dear Martyn Thanks for this. It is all my fault for starting a silly argument but I think it more likely that the instruments referred to as chitarra italiana etc. are lute shaped but that doesn't rule out figure of eight shaped instruments which would have existed along side and the two forms would be interchangeable, As for Praetorius I just don't think that he has supplied enough information for us draw definite conclusions from. </p>
<p>How are the llamas?</p> Dear Monica,
As mentioned in…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2017-09-02:2111060:Comment:727032017-09-02T13:37:51.063ZMartyn Hodgsonhttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/MartynHodgson
<p>Dear Monica,</p>
<p>As mentioned in the response to your earlier recent note which I've just sent, </p>
<p><strong><em>(......... I am quite happy for the chitarra to be thought of as either a lute shaped or figure of eight shaped instrument. It's plausible that both types co-existed ).</em></strong></p>
<p>I also said on a number of previous occasions that we both seemed to agree that either form could be possible - I'm sorry if I failed to make this clear enough. As I understand it, you…</p>
<p>Dear Monica,</p>
<p>As mentioned in the response to your earlier recent note which I've just sent, </p>
<p><strong><em>(......... I am quite happy for the chitarra to be thought of as either a lute shaped or figure of eight shaped instrument. It's plausible that both types co-existed ).</em></strong></p>
<p>I also said on a number of previous occasions that we both seemed to agree that either form could be possible - I'm sorry if I failed to make this clear enough. As I understand it, you favour the lute shaped version - I think both may have been reasonably commonly employed. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Martyn</p>
<p></p> Dear Monica,
It's very good…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2017-09-02:2111060:Comment:729312017-09-02T13:31:01.935ZMartyn Hodgsonhttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/MartynHodgson
<p></p>
<p>Dear Monica,</p>
<p>It's very good that you're free to be back with us. Would you now therefore kindly address the specific questions put to you in mine of Friday 25 Aug and Wed 30 Aug last and clarify your position about these matters; preferably without further digressions.</p>
<p>Regarding Praetorius, I've interpolated my responses into your latest and, for convenience to all, am pasting them in…</p>
<p></p>
<p>Dear Monica,</p>
<p>It's very good that you're free to be back with us. Would you now therefore kindly address the specific questions put to you in mine of Friday 25 Aug and Wed 30 Aug last and clarify your position about these matters; preferably without further digressions.</p>
<p>Regarding Praetorius, I've interpolated my responses into your latest and, for convenience to all, am pasting them in below.</p>
<p>Martyn</p>
<p>------------------------------------------------------------</p>
<p>'Martyn seems determine to go on pressing his point but unfortunately a lot of what he says is inaccurate and irrelevant <em><strong>(MH: I'd be grateful for a detailed note of these precise inaccuracies other than, of course, simply contrary assertions). </strong></em>He seems to be trying to argue that Praetorius’s description of the quinterna proves that the chitarra italiana, the chitarra napoletana or the chitarra a siete corde were flat backed figure of eight shaped instruments. </p>
<p><strong><em>(MH: No - as clearly pointed out no less than four times in our earlier exchanges, I am quite happy for the chitarra to be thought of as either a lute shaped or figure of eight shaped instrument. It's plausible that both types co-existed ).</em></strong><br/>It doesn’t – Praetorius is certainly describing a 4-course flat backed figure of 8-shaped instrument but nothing he says links this with Italy. <br/><strong><em>(MH: Praetorius's report of the four or five course configuration, which both appear in the same chapter 26 describing the Quinterna/Chiterna, and his description of a flat backed instrument therefore applies to both four and five course configurations. He makes no mention of the instruments described in this chapter as being lute shaped. I was extremely chary of interpreting this to fit any other suggestion.)</em></strong><br/>Martyn’s translation (and Tyler’s) is slightly inaccurate <br/><strong><em>(MH: Not my translation - I used Crookes, Clarendon Press 1986, translation - there's no substantive difference of his with yours below.)</em></strong> – the first sentence reads<br/> The guitar or chiterna, is a four-course instrument tuned like the first lute (as described previously in Number 24) .<br/><strong><em>(MH: In fact, I very carefully refrained from using the translation ‘The guitar or chiterna’ since it begs the question and I actually employed Praetorius’s own precise terminology ie 'The Quinterna or Chiterna’....) </em></strong><br/> The lute is described in Chapter 24 on p.29 and its tunings are shown in the Table 24 on p. 27. The tuning in the first column is c f a d’. The tuning of the Quinterna is shown on p. 28 in the first column No. 26. It is shown twice. The first is c f a d’; the second is a 4th higher – g’ d’ b f. Praetorius goes on to say Some guitars have five courses of strings, and in Italy, the Ziarlatini and Salt’in banco (who are like our commedians and buffoons) use them for simple strummed accompaniments to their villanelle and other vulgar clownish songs. <br/><em><strong>(MH: Indeed, the Italian usage of the flat backed instrument is as pointed out in the note I sent earlier along with the Crookes translation).</strong></em> <br/> In 1619 the 5-course guitar was well established in Italy and the commedia dell'arte musicians would have played 5-course guitars. This is certainly how Tyler interprets it. The illustration by Jacques Callot does not show how many courses the instrument has although it seems to have 5 pegs, but the well known portrait of Carlo Cantu – another commedia dell'arte figure clearly shows him playing a small 5-course guitar.<br/> <strong><em>(MH: And, of course, this supports Praetorius’s report that small figure of eight shaped instruments, whether four or five course, were also played by these characters which is the very point)</em></strong><br/> There are other things about Praetorius which suggest that he wasn’t very familiar with the instrument he is describing – his illustration shows a 6-course instrument with a single first course and five double courses and the two tunings he gives suggest that there were two sizes – one quite big. <br/><strong><em>(MH: It surely would be prudent to consider that Praetorius, actually being around at the time, might know more about the instruments (and various configurations) of the period than either of us</em> <em>- especially when he had carefully spent much of his life scrupulously documenting and recording instruments reported to him from across Europe)</em></strong><br/> One problem with this list is that it is not possible to save one’s message and go back to it if one is interrupted as I frequently am. But the issue seems important enough to spend time responding to it and sorting out exactly what Praetorius says. <br/><strong><em>(MH: To solve the problem of saving a message on the Ning site, you might try simply draft any response in Word, say, and then when satisfied you can simply cut and paste it into the Ning reply box.)</em></strong></p>
<p><strong><em>-----------------------------</em></strong></p>
<p>Finally Monica, might I make a gentle suggestion? We all know how irritating it can be if, in an exchange of views such as this, one believes the other party is not getting the point. However, normally this irritation is suppressed in the interests of scholarly, and reasonably polite, debate. With this in mind it might be better if we both refrain from personal comments about the other. It would be generally appreciated and not, I think, just by me. If we stick to just stating the position as we see it without throwing in the odd personal comment about the other party and their supposed motives this will surely result in a more orderly and ultimately beneficial exchange of views.</p>
<p>regards</p>
<p>Martyn</p> Just one further point - Mart…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2017-09-02:2111060:Comment:725302017-09-02T12:35:34.685ZMonica Hallhttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/MonicaHall
<p><span>Just one further point - Martyn says that "in Praetorius' next chapter (27) he in fact deals with a small four string lute shaped instrument which he calls </span><em>Pandurina: Mandurichen</em><span>. He also reports that it known variously as </span><em>Bandurichen, Mandoer</em><span> and </span><em>Mandurnichen</em><span> - but, tellingly, not known as </span><em>Chitarra</em><span>." If he is suggesting that this proves that the term chitarra in Italian can't refer to a small lute…</span></p>
<p><span>Just one further point - Martyn says that "in Praetorius' next chapter (27) he in fact deals with a small four string lute shaped instrument which he calls </span><em>Pandurina: Mandurichen</em><span>. He also reports that it known variously as </span><em>Bandurichen, Mandoer</em><span> and </span><em>Mandurnichen</em><span> - but, tellingly, not known as </span><em>Chitarra</em><span>." If he is suggesting that this proves that the term chitarra in Italian can't refer to a small lute he is talking nonsense. The meaning depends on the context.</span></p>
<p><span>I am attaching a rather nice illustration of a quintern from Virdung's Musica Getutscht writing in German a 100 years earlier which is clearly a small lute. </span></p>
<p></p>
<p></p> Martyn seems determine to go…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2017-09-02:2111060:Comment:728282017-09-02T11:05:44.348ZMonica Hallhttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/MonicaHall
<p> Martyn seems determine to go on pressing his point but unfortunately a lot of what he says is inaccurate and irrelevant. He seems to be trying to argue that Praetorius’s description of the <b>quinterna</b> proves that the chitarra italiana, the chitarra napoletana or the chitarra a siete corde were flat backed figure of eight shaped instruments.</p>
<p>It doesn’t – Praetorius is certainly describing a 4-course flat backed figure of 8-shaped instrument but nothing he says links this with…</p>
<p> Martyn seems determine to go on pressing his point but unfortunately a lot of what he says is inaccurate and irrelevant. He seems to be trying to argue that Praetorius’s description of the <b>quinterna</b> proves that the chitarra italiana, the chitarra napoletana or the chitarra a siete corde were flat backed figure of eight shaped instruments.</p>
<p>It doesn’t – Praetorius is certainly describing a 4-course flat backed figure of 8-shaped instrument but nothing he says links this with Italy.</p>
<p>Martyn’s translation (and Tyler’s) is slightly inaccurate – the first sentence reads</p>
<p> <b>The guitar or chiterna, is a four-course instrument tuned like the first lute (as described previously in Number 24) .</b></p>
<p><b> </b>The lute is described in Chapter 24 on p.29 and its tunings are shown in the Table 24 on p. 27. The tuning in the first column is c f a d’. </p>
<p>The tuning of the Quinterna is shown on p. 28 in the first column No. 26. It is shown twice. The first is c f a d’; the second is a 4th higher – g’ d’ b f. </p>
<p>Praetorius goes on to say</p>
<p> <b>Some guitars have five courses of strings, and in Italy, the Ziarlatini and Salt’in banco (who are like our commedians and buffoons) use them for simple strummed accompaniments to their villanelle and other vulgar clownish songs. </b></p>
<p> In 1619 the the 5-course guitar was well established in Italy and the <em>commedia dell'arte</em> musicians would have played 5-course guitars. This is certainly how Tyler interprets it. The illustration by Jacques Callot does not show how many courses the instrument has although it seems to have 5 pegs, but the well known portrait of Carlo Cantu – another <em>commedia dell'arte</em> figure clearly shows him playing a small 5-course guitar.</p>
<p> There are other things about Praetorius which suggest that he wasn’t very familiar with the instrument he is describing – his illustration shows a 6-course instrument with a single first course and five double courses and the two tunings he gives suggest that there were two sizes – one quite big. </p>
<p> One problem with this list is that it is not possible to save one’s message and go back to it if one is interrupted as I frequently am. But the issue seems important enough to spend time responding to it and sorting out exactly what Praetorius says.</p>
<p> </p> Sadly Monica cannot attend f…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2017-09-01:2111060:Comment:725282017-09-01T12:32:04.073ZMartyn Hodgsonhttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/MartynHodgson
<p></p>
<p>Sadly Monica cannot attend further to this thread since she has other, understandably more pressing, domestic obligations (see her last above) - accordingly I'll not now respond to her latest comments. However it may be helpful for those with an interest in this little instrument, to clarify a few of the points I made earlier and, in particular, to give the complete relevant quote from Praetorius where he describes the instrument. You can then make up your own minds as to whether…</p>
<p></p>
<p>Sadly Monica cannot attend further to this thread since she has other, understandably more pressing, domestic obligations (see her last above) - accordingly I'll not now respond to her latest comments. However it may be helpful for those with an interest in this little instrument, to clarify a few of the points I made earlier and, in particular, to give the complete relevant quote from Praetorius where he describes the instrument. You can then make up your own minds as to whether his reports should be given any credence or simply dismissed.</p>
<p>Praetorius (1619) is one of the very few early organological sources we actually have (and roughly contemporary with the <em>'chitarra'</em> being discussed) and many of his observations have proved accurate and telling in other contexts. In this particular case, by linking flat backed instruments directly to contemporary Italian usage, his reports also suggest that some of these Italian instruments may have been flat backed too and not lute shaped. One of the terms he employs, <em>Chiterna</em>, is not far off the name '<em>chitarra'</em> under discussion but, in any case, the precise local name is not really relevant since the instrument was known by many other names depending on location. eg. Gorlier and Morlaye call the figure eight instrument <em>Guiterne</em>, Le Roy calls it <em>Guiterre</em> and, of course, English sources frequently used an Anglicised version of <em>Guiterne</em> - eg <em>Gittern / Gitterne</em>.</p>
<p>---------------------<br/>Extract from <em>De Organographia</em> (1619) pages 52-53:</p>
<p><em>Chapter 26</em> <br/><em>QUINTERNA</em><br/><em>'The Quinterna or Chiterna is a four course instrument tuned like the original lute [ie its internal intervals]. Its back is not round, however, but completely flat, like that of ein Bandoer (the Bandora); the depth of the sides</em> <em>are at most two or three fingers breadth (see Plate XVI).</em><br/><em>Some have five courses of strings; and in Italy the Ziarlatini [charlatans] and Salt'inbanco [mountebanks] - these people are like our comics and buffoons - use them for simple strummed accompaniments to their villanelle and other vulgar, clownish songs.</em> <br/><em>However, to use it as an accompamiment for beautiful art-songs performed by an accomplished singer is quite a different thing altogether.'</em></p>
<p><br/>-------------------------</p>
<p>Praetorius's association with Italian <em>commedia dell'arte</em> figures is also reinforced by contemporary Italian depictions of such performers playing small flat backed figure of eight shaped instruments. For example the clown dancing and playing such an instrument in a painting of the <em>Balli di Sfessania</em> by Callot at around the same time as Praetorius was writing (Grunfeld p. 80, Evans 133). In short, Praetorius is reporting (accurately in my view) that that small four course, flat backed, figure of eight shaped instruments (ie not lute shaped) were also being used in Italy at the time.</p>
<p>Incidentally, his next chapter (27) does in fact deal with a small four string lute shaped instrument which he calls <em>Pandurina: Mandurichen</em>. He also reports that it known variously as <em>Bandurichen, Mandoer</em> and <em>Mandurnichen</em> - but, tellingly, not known as <em>Chitarra</em>.</p>
<p>Also note that, for Praetorius, <em>Cithara</em> (Chapter 31) was the wire strung cittern in various sizes and tunings - he carefully describes Italian and French cittern styles and mentions some instruments associated with named individuals. He even very precisely gives the exact gauges of wire string required. All in fact extremely methodical for the period and not, I'd suggest, the work of someone usually cavalier with the facts.</p>
<p>MH</p> Peter,
Further to the discuss…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2017-09-01:2111060:Comment:725262017-09-01T10:52:28.996ZMartyn Hodgsonhttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/MartynHodgson
<p>Peter,</p>
<p>Further to the discussion about a high octave string on the third course of the four course guitar, in my report of 23 August (pasted below for convenience) I should have also mentioned that it did have a marked effect in brightening the instrument and, if struck with the thumb (as for example in strumming chords), it does not intrude but adds somewhat to the little instrument's charm. So the use of such stringing was not, I suggest, to change the compass of the instrument in…</p>
<p>Peter,</p>
<p>Further to the discussion about a high octave string on the third course of the four course guitar, in my report of 23 August (pasted below for convenience) I should have also mentioned that it did have a marked effect in brightening the instrument and, if struck with the thumb (as for example in strumming chords), it does not intrude but adds somewhat to the little instrument's charm. So the use of such stringing was not, I suggest, to change the compass of the instrument in anyway but to brighten its sound. It certainly works well in the simple dance settings and pieces which allow a bit of strumming play. </p>
<p>Martyn</p>
<p>---------------------------</p>
<p>23 August</p>
<p>To return to the original matter: I can report that I've now strung the old/new four course instrument with a high octave and a bass on the third course. One problem was that it was necessary to lower the instrument's pitch by a tone to accommodate the breaking stress of the new highest sounding string (the third course high octave) and this inevitably reduced the brightness and clarity of the fourth course bass string (especially when tuned a tone low as required in some sources).</p>
<p>Nevertheless the tuning works relatively well in the simple dances in Phalese but the high third course octaves are, as might be expected, intrusive in the contrapuntal works by Fuenllana and Mudarra and blur the fine lines. The dances in the Gorlier, Morlaye and Le Roy collections also work fine, but the chanson etc settings requiring some counterpoint less well. Finally, the Barberis works are interesting since there is a passage which could be thought to represent campenalla style play taking advantage of the high octave third (eg 6 bars from the end of the Fantasie seconda) - or possibly not.......</p>
<p>In short, in my view an octave high third is possible and permissable in some pieces but I still prefer a unison third in all the repertoire.</p>
<p>MH</p> I really have not got time to…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2017-08-30:2111060:Comment:726952017-08-30T19:52:20.865ZMonica Hallhttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/MonicaHall
<p>I really have not got time to reply to this in detail - which is simply going over again the same arguments with Martyn misrepresenting what I have said in an attempt to prove that he is right and therefore I must be wrong. </p>
<p>I have never asserted that that the term chitarra in Italian always refers to a small lute only that it most likely does. I know that you were familiar with Meucci's article because we have discussed this at length before. Many years ago there was a similar…</p>
<p>I really have not got time to reply to this in detail - which is simply going over again the same arguments with Martyn misrepresenting what I have said in an attempt to prove that he is right and therefore I must be wrong. </p>
<p>I have never asserted that that the term chitarra in Italian always refers to a small lute only that it most likely does. I know that you were familiar with Meucci's article because we have discussed this at length before. Many years ago there was a similar confusion about the identity of the medieval gittern - it was thought to be figure of 8 shaped or at least the holly leafed shaped instrument depicted in many medieval sources until Laurence Wright's article was published in the GSJ proving beyond reasonable doubt that it was actually a small lute shaped instrument. No one would dismiss what he said as speculation. Meucci's article picks up where Wright leaves off - actually they overlap a bit and it is a reasonable assumption that the term chitarra does refers to a small lute unless there is very positive evidence to the contrary.</p>
<p>I was able to look at Praetorius's book - his quintern has a single first course and five double courses - not very likely - and his other comments - as Tyler says - suggest he was not very familiar with the instrument.</p>
<p>I have also reread the English translation of Phalese introduction. I know that Tyler and Co seem to have concluded that it does indicate octave stringing on the third course but I am not convinced about that. The references to 1st and 2nd basses which occur elsewhere other than in the tuning instructions are just as likely to be due to the misapplication of the information from the cittern book. I don't think you can deduce very much from the illustrations. They are not photographs! You cannot draw definite conclusions from them. Praetorius might have copied his 6-course guitar from Phalese for all we know. There is no point in putting a high octave string on the 3rd course - it creates the same effect as a high octave string on the 3rd course of the 5-course guitar. It doesn't extend the compass of the instrument in any useful way. What Mudarra and Bermudo say really is all we need to know. The 4-course guitar had a re-entrant tuning with a bordon added to the 4th course to extend the compass downwards.</p>
<p>However I have no doubt that in the same way that I have to endure baroque guitar music played with a high G string I will have to steel myself to put up with the 4-course guitar music being mutilated in the same way.</p>
<p>I am currently caring for my terminally ill partner and I have really not got time to quibble over there things so don't expect to hear from me again. </p>
<p></p>
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