soundbard finish - Early Guitars and Vihuela2024-03-29T15:14:18Zhttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/forum/topics/soundbard-finish?commentId=2111060%3AComment%3A17219&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThis addition to the replies…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2010-07-24:2111060:Comment:172662010-07-24T14:22:11.266ZPeter Forresterhttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/PeterForrester
This addition to the replies may be irrelevant but as Akira now has one of my guitars made more than thirty years ago and apparently 'as new',I should say that at that time I was using a commercial spirit varnish, available only in 'clear' and 'brown'. Of course I cannot now remember the name! And I believe that it is no longer available. It was basically a resin + alcohol mixture, reasonably hard-wearing, and I always put as few coats as possible on soundboards. It dried very fast, but new…
This addition to the replies may be irrelevant but as Akira now has one of my guitars made more than thirty years ago and apparently 'as new',I should say that at that time I was using a commercial spirit varnish, available only in 'clear' and 'brown'. Of course I cannot now remember the name! And I believe that it is no longer available. It was basically a resin + alcohol mixture, reasonably hard-wearing, and I always put as few coats as possible on soundboards. It dried very fast, but new coats tended to soften previous coats, making it very difficult to use the coloured varnish. It certainly tended to take away the upper partials from notes although I find that they have come back on another thirty-year old instrument, a lute, that I know still.<br />
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I'm now using home-made oil varnishes but 'unvarnished' soundboards are problematical. My own solution does not keep them clean or really washable, but does prevent grease from fingers soaking in and damping the sound. It may even be authentic! I use a size made from dilute glue (about 6 X water added to working animal glue) This is used all over my instruments. The soundboard areas have alum added to the size - up to an amount approximately equal to the original glue before adding water. Keen photographers will know that alum is the hardener used with gelatin negatives. If there is any danger, or even just fear, of warm size re-melting the glue used in construction, it can be allowed to set to a soft jelly and rubbed on with foam plastic, sponge, cloth etc. Probably two coats with gentle sanding between because the grain will be raised. No alum under the varnish because it can sometimes form tiny crystals which will spoil the finish, but can be merely rubbed off on a soundboard. Alum works by raising the melting point of the glue leaving a thin hard protective layer.<br />
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Sun-thickened oils, stand-oil especially, were used by artists because they yellowed less than ordinary linseed oil. However for instrument soundboards generally they will add weight by firstly soaking into the wood and secondly by their oxidising drying process which will add even more weight. This latter may be desirable for violin sound, but violins have one or more 'size' layers below the varnish to prevent its soaking into the wood. Bear in mind also that most woods change colour with time and light.<br />
<br />
Another possibility which makers could experiment with and which I have used on 'non-authentic' instruments where a matt finish was desirable is to rub the instrument over with plenty of white spirit/turps subs, followed immediately with a second rub over with a polyurethane varnish diluted with about twice its volume of white spirit. The first coat prevents the varnish from soaking-in. I have used Ronseal gloss, dried overnight, almost always not requiring a second coat, especially on simple shapes like dulcimers, etc. Use a clean cloth and dispose of it safely. Again the result is a thin hard surface layer. Hi, Machel,
thank you for yo…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2010-07-22:2111060:Comment:172312010-07-22T13:46:12.231ZAkira Sakamotohttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/AkiraSakamoto
Hi, Machel,<br />
<br />
thank you for your comment (in your previous post) on the sun thickened oil.<br />
<br />
The reason for my question is that I've heard that sun thickened oil is free from yellowing after the application, which should be an advantage for the finishing material.
Hi, Machel,<br />
<br />
thank you for your comment (in your previous post) on the sun thickened oil.<br />
<br />
The reason for my question is that I've heard that sun thickened oil is free from yellowing after the application, which should be an advantage for the finishing material. No metal driers in Tru Oil (a…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2010-07-22:2111060:Comment:172302010-07-22T09:26:07.230ZMichael. N.http://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/MichaelN
No metal driers in Tru Oil (according to the MSDS) although it does contain mineral turpentine.<br />
The Varnish Oil contains a 'high resin content' which indicates that it will eventually build into a gloss finish - if that is what is desired. No doubt that you could also use it on the soundboard as well, although it will probably give a finish somewhere between matte and gloss providing you limit the number of coats. They clearly state that it contains no solvents. Polymerised oil with a high…
No metal driers in Tru Oil (according to the MSDS) although it does contain mineral turpentine.<br />
The Varnish Oil contains a 'high resin content' which indicates that it will eventually build into a gloss finish - if that is what is desired. No doubt that you could also use it on the soundboard as well, although it will probably give a finish somewhere between matte and gloss providing you limit the number of coats. They clearly state that it contains no solvents. Polymerised oil with a high resin content, yet is a wipe on finish - don't quite know how they manage that but I guess it must work. Hey Andrew,
I only do the to…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2010-07-21:2111060:Comment:172262010-07-21T19:06:16.226ZScot Tremblayhttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/ScotTremblay
Hey Andrew,<br />
<br />
I only do the tops of some of my instruments with the Tried and True or Naturhaus. The back and sides, neck etc I French polish or Varnish. But then I make 19th century guitar copies from about a dozen different makers so generally I try to copy what the original maker did. Some of the makers used French Polish, some wax and/or oil and some oil varnish.<br />
<br />
How you do the back and sides depends a bit on if you fill the pores in the wood or not and persomal choice. I use a mixture of…
Hey Andrew,<br />
<br />
I only do the tops of some of my instruments with the Tried and True or Naturhaus. The back and sides, neck etc I French polish or Varnish. But then I make 19th century guitar copies from about a dozen different makers so generally I try to copy what the original maker did. Some of the makers used French Polish, some wax and/or oil and some oil varnish.<br />
<br />
How you do the back and sides depends a bit on if you fill the pores in the wood or not and persomal choice. I use a mixture of eggwhite, pumis and sanding dust to fill the pores before French Polish or varnish. This gives you a glass smooth surface to start with. Others like the look of natural wood pores so it's up to you. I've never really tried the eggwhite filler under oil as I don't fill my tops. I don't think the oil would lift the filler but I'd try it on a scrap piece before just to check it out if one were to go that route.<br />
<br />
You can skip that filler step if using French Polish or varnish and you build up the finish enough to level it again to the surface of the pores. I don't like this method as it wastes a lot of finish and is just more work. The finish shrinks over time so I find I always end up with pores showing anyways if I go this route. That's why I fill first.<br />
<br />
I personally have not used any of the oils mentioned on the whole instrument but have seen a few done that way. I think it's fine but just not my choice. I like the look of a beautiful figured Maple or Rosewood or what have you as it shines under a finely applied French Polish or Varnish.<br />
<br />
One thing I've not figured out satisfactually is how to stop the dirty look that comes to the high contact areas of an oiled finish (ie. the area where ones right arm touches the instrument top, pinky finger marks if one plants that finger on the top etc.). The Naturhaus with the Hard Wax finish is much better than the others I've tried but one has to reapply the wax every so often and performers tend to neglect keeping the routine up. One still gets marks in those areas with Shellac/French Polish anyways, so maybe it's just a fact of life in the end.<br />
<br />
With the varnish Oil you can get a pretty high gloss finish, not as high as Shellac or Varnish mind you, if you apply enough coats and burnish the heck out of it (I've gone as high as 20+ to see how far I could go before getting sick of applying oil) . Scott,
Did you use the Tried…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2010-07-21:2111060:Comment:172252010-07-21T15:52:17.225ZAndrew Hartighttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/AndrewHartig
Scott,<br />
<br />
Did you use the Tried and True Varnish Oil on just the soundboard or the whole thing?<br />
<br />
I notice on their site <a href="http://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/" target="_blank">http://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/</a> that they state the Varnish Oil builds to a semi-gloss, whereas their Danish Oil (which is 100% Linseed oil) creates a satin finish. I could envision using their Danish Oil for the soundboard and their Varnish Oil for the remainder... Any thoughts, anyone?<br />
<br />
I agree with…
Scott,<br />
<br />
Did you use the Tried and True Varnish Oil on just the soundboard or the whole thing?<br />
<br />
I notice on their site <a href="http://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/" target="_blank">http://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/</a> that they state the Varnish Oil builds to a semi-gloss, whereas their Danish Oil (which is 100% Linseed oil) creates a satin finish. I could envision using their Danish Oil for the soundboard and their Varnish Oil for the remainder... Any thoughts, anyone?<br />
<br />
I agree with you that I like the fact that their products are environmentally friendly and safe -- no petroleum distillates or heavy-metal driers! I've used Tru-Oil in the past, but I'm fairly sure it is loaded with metal driers... Both Tru-Oil and Tried-and-True do contain polymerized oil -- part of the trick to getting it to dry so quickly.<br />
<br />
I should note here for others that Tried and True does NOT contain any thinners or solvent -- it is just the polymerized oil (and/or resin). I use "Tried and True" Varnis…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2010-07-21:2111060:Comment:172222010-07-21T14:38:52.222ZScot Tremblayhttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/ScotTremblay
I use "Tried and True" Varnish Oil and am satisfied the results. Another product I've recently experimented with is Naturhaus Hard Oil Performance<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.naturhaus.net/en/primer-oils/hard-oil-high-performance/?phpMyAdmin=f3e787c8ac8146546bb964c0552cdfed" target="_blank">http://www.naturhaus.net/en/primer-oils/hard-oil-high-performance/?...</a><br />
<br />
It was originally formulated for high traffic flooring so I figure it must offer good protection to guitar tops. There is a second product…
I use "Tried and True" Varnish Oil and am satisfied the results. Another product I've recently experimented with is Naturhaus Hard Oil Performance<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.naturhaus.net/en/primer-oils/hard-oil-high-performance/?phpMyAdmin=f3e787c8ac8146546bb964c0552cdfed" target="_blank">http://www.naturhaus.net/en/primer-oils/hard-oil-high-performance/?...</a><br />
<br />
It was originally formulated for high traffic flooring so I figure it must offer good protection to guitar tops. There is a second product that goes on after giving the oil a few days curing time and that is a Hard Wax. So far excellent results.<br />
<br />
Both "Tried and True" and "Naturhaus" products are enviromentally friendly which I like as there are enough poisons in my shop as it is. The brands that Alex. mention…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2010-07-21:2111060:Comment:172192010-07-21T09:25:00.219ZMichael. N.http://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/MichaelN
The brands that Alex. mentioned (certainly Rustins) are a blend of oils and resins. The resin content is probably fairly low which would make it a 'long oil varnish'. It it is thinned with a solvent so that it is water like in consistency and easy to apply as a wipe on finish. Those brands may not be available in the US. but you can bet your last cent that there will be an equivalent.<br />
I haven't used the Tried and True. E-mail Joe Robson and ask if his wiping varnish has a resin content. Joe…
The brands that Alex. mentioned (certainly Rustins) are a blend of oils and resins. The resin content is probably fairly low which would make it a 'long oil varnish'. It it is thinned with a solvent so that it is water like in consistency and easy to apply as a wipe on finish. Those brands may not be available in the US. but you can bet your last cent that there will be an equivalent.<br />
I haven't used the Tried and True. E-mail Joe Robson and ask if his wiping varnish has a resin content. Joe also specialises in Violin type oil varnishes ie. brushed on.<br />
The other alternative is to use Tru-oil. I've used it on soundboards but cut with approx. 30 - 40% turps. Whether Tru-oil contains some resin content seems to be something of a mystery but it certainly acts like it. At the very least the Linseed is highly polymerised.<br />
For necks I use the wipe on danish oil. Backs/Sides is either wipe on (for a matte finish) or a short Violin type oil varnish for a gloss finish. Uncut Tru oil can be used on the Back/sides to also give a gloss finish but you will have to apply in excess of 10 coats to achieve that.<br />
The 'trick' is to practice on off cuts first. One day I'll heed my own advice :-)<br />
I doubt that the oil in these products are sun thickened. Most are probably heat treated to accelerate the polymerisation.<br />
Oliver: use something on the Soundboard. Personally I wouldn't use nitro cellulose based products but many makers of modern Guitars do. May I add one more question t…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2010-07-21:2111060:Comment:172172010-07-21T02:53:04.217ZAkira Sakamotohttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/AkiraSakamoto
May I add one more question to Andrew's?<br />
<br />
Are these different types of oil mentioned here sunthickened? Or, is it irrelevant wheather the oil is sunthickened or not?<br />
<br />
Thank you in advance!
May I add one more question to Andrew's?<br />
<br />
Are these different types of oil mentioned here sunthickened? Or, is it irrelevant wheather the oil is sunthickened or not?<br />
<br />
Thank you in advance! Some questions for those who…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2010-07-20:2111060:Comment:172142010-07-20T23:38:53.214ZAndrew Hartighttp://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/AndrewHartig
Some questions for those who advocate the use of "Danish Oil":<br />
<br />
-What does your Danish oil contain? I've done some searching and found that some are pure tung oil, others are tung oil "with other oils" (and possibly some resins?), and some are pure linseed oil....<br />
<br />
-Has anyone used Tried and True Danish Oil or Varnish Oil for soundboards?<br />
<br />
-For those using Danish oil for the soundboard, what are you using for the rest of the instrument?<br />
<br />
I'm hoping to start applying finish to my new 4c guitar…
Some questions for those who advocate the use of "Danish Oil":<br />
<br />
-What does your Danish oil contain? I've done some searching and found that some are pure tung oil, others are tung oil "with other oils" (and possibly some resins?), and some are pure linseed oil....<br />
<br />
-Has anyone used Tried and True Danish Oil or Varnish Oil for soundboards?<br />
<br />
-For those using Danish oil for the soundboard, what are you using for the rest of the instrument?<br />
<br />
I'm hoping to start applying finish to my new 4c guitar in the next month or so and am having fun reading some differing opinions! Schleske uses a very scientif…tag:earlyguitar.ning.com,2009-04-26:2111060:Comment:95082009-04-26T16:52:15.508ZMichael. N.http://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/MichaelN
Schleske uses a very scientific approach. It's a long time since I read his results but he tested various finishes that had been applied to strips of Spruce. Shellac added mass and resulted in what Sacconni referred to as ossification of the wood - adding a certain hardness or stiffness. He found that oil increased mass but also increased damping. Perhaps that's in direct contradiction to Michelman, or I'm not recalling 'facts' correctly. The oil and damping part I'm quite sure of. I've…
Schleske uses a very scientific approach. It's a long time since I read his results but he tested various finishes that had been applied to strips of Spruce. Shellac added mass and resulted in what Sacconni referred to as ossification of the wood - adding a certain hardness or stiffness. He found that oil increased mass but also increased damping. Perhaps that's in direct contradiction to Michelman, or I'm not recalling 'facts' correctly. The oil and damping part I'm quite sure of. I've absolutely no basis to question Schleske's results but again the amount of oil used on our soundboards is extremely small. That may be the crucial bit.